Curse

Zodiac Meteor · Nov 01, 2010, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Notice: This is the revised version, before point out a flaw in this argument, please check this post to see if it is covered.
Tanking and Nuking have been strong paradigms in Guild Wars. Sadly, after years of updates, skills skills/areas/monsters etc. that paradigm is fading away. To a point that Tanking sucks.
(Also read Ensigns why nuking sucks).

What is Tanking?
Tanking has multiple roles but it’s most important one is migrating damage for the team. Migrating damage allows the team to stay well alive and allows the midline or backline to deal decent damage without being attacked and for the most part it works. This sounds ideal, sadly however, just because it works doesn’t mean it works well.

1. Tanking Migrates Damage, increasing your team’s survivability.
That is correct, tanking does migrate damage but not as well as it should.
- AI reacts to damage taken and given. Depending on how much is being done they will ignore their current target (the tank) for a more suitable party member (the healer). This could actually reduce team survivability than increase it.

2. Tanking-n-spanking allows midline to deal damage from afar without worry from being attacked.
That is correct, but once again it’s not always done flawlessly or even outclassed in most areas.
- Tank-n-spanking is mainly used in harder missions, where foes hit hard and fast. Where weaker players get slaughtered due to lower armor/no defense skills. My focus here will be The Deep, this is perfect because it has three levels of skill which it can be done.
a. Tank-n-spank, nuker style. Everyone and their mother did this one time or another. It requires at least 3 tanks, 4 or so nukers, some monks and necro’s with one a BiP. The idea is ball up all enemies in a room while players run in and hit the foes. The most memorable thing about this is it can take over an hour. Either enough damage isn’t done, tanks die and/or the team nearly wipes. This tactic is very slow and overall isn’t safe.
b. Physway, physical style. It doesn’t require an ER healer to play this way and a monk could even do better. Foes in the Deep aren’t very strong to require a tank-n-spank. Go ahead, charge head on into a fight, as long as your team was ready for it. It is possible to do this easily under an hour. I’ll go into more details on melee physicals later.
c. Tank-n-spank. Hex style, hexes are by far superior to nuking in Guild Wars. Most can trigger indefinitely in the time limit and some even have AoE effects which makes them even deadlier. While Searing Flames could deal 90+ fire AoE damage by the time you cast that ball of Oni could have taken five times that damage from Spiteful Spirit.
The Deep is a good example that tanking does work and not work, depending on the team setup.

3. Body blocking isn’t that useful
- The great thing about protecting your backline is you can body block the enemy. So reducing damage while you’re blocking that Destroy of Flesh is good, but don’t expect it to be a team savior. The biggest flaw is, tanking is frontline. While you’re holding a few Destroyer attention, it’s a bad idea to run to your monk to body block that one Destroyer

To tank, or not to tank, that is the question:

Your build is not the only build that is currently doing the dungeon. Technically, each time you complete a dungeon you’re doing it with 8 builds because of 8 players. If your build won’t work with your teams then don’t use it. Don’t bring Great Dwarf Weapon if your team has no physicals and don’t tank unless your team is prepared to nuke.
Hold that thought, as it ties into my next point. Which is the main reason why tanking sucks.

Physicals are good damage dealers:

Every physical class, more specifically the melee professions are deal more damage than casters. Assassins, Warriors and Dervishes are the best damage dealing professions casters in most situations. For those that are wondering, hexing is the best way to deal damage from a caster in PvE because of hexes limitless damage triggers and hardly any hex denial.

Asking a Warrior to tank is the equivalent to asking him/her to weaken the team. Most areas, missions and even elite areas can be done with melee without tanking. Sometime it’s better to be a damage dealing melee team than actual tank-n-spank team in an elite area.
Why?
Physicals have access and more importantly, affected by many buff skills in Guild Wars. To a point that, without these effects, tanking would be superior to dealing damage.

Asuran Scan: Increase physical damage dealt by 75%. This hex is beastly. It is insane on how overpowered it is, it’s spammable, requires only 5 energy, casts instantly and just like most hexes the 75% trigger has no limit on how many times it can be triggered.

Strength and Honor: Increase melee damage by 20+. This is also incredibly powerful and it triggers on any melee hit, plus the damage can stack with other skills. Any melee class can bring this on their bar without hardly any draw backs.

Orders: Steal/deal 10-15 damage per an attack. It lasts for only a few seconds but it affects the entire team with a decent damage increase and cover enchantment.

Increased Attack Speed: Only the Mesmer can cast faster naturally, all the other caster classes don’t have access to their own increased spell speed (that doesn’t generally suck). On top of increased damage per a swing, melee can hit more often. The best way for casters to cast faster is by the effect of wands/offhands.

Great Dwarf Weapon: Deals ~+20 damage with attacking and a ~40% knockdown chance when they hit. Holy Dwayna, a maxed Delver title means nearly every other attack knockdown a foe. Making them powerless for 2 (or 3) seconds on top of increased damage, it doesn’t matter if the foe stands up because as soon as they do Great Dwarf Weapon will knock back down immediately. The only drawback is it can’t be cast on self but that’s not problem for an ER infuse Ele spamming, Ritualist increasing Great Dwarf Weapon length to nearly 40 seconds or any caster that doesn’t always need high energy upkeep.

These are the prime reasons why a melee DPS is so powerful and far superior to tanks. They can deal insanely high damage with access to many damage buff skills.

When to Tank:
Tanking is inferior to DPS, but there are times that it is better to tank. The best time to tank is when your team build is fit your tanking build. In other words, unless your balling up a huge group of enemies, pulling them in a ball to your team to nuke. That is when to tank.

When not to Tank:
When there is no tank-n-spanking. Simple as that, tanking 3 Titans is meaningless when you can just as easily kill them. Unless your team is built around you tanking, then tank. If not, then use your killing machine class to kill.

The difference between Tanking and Tanking Tactics, AKA Control:
Control involves balling up a mob of enemies and then nuking them from afar. Although it is seen as tanking, because tanking requires a good defensive build to ball up foes. This is true but doesn't mean it's tanking. In EFGJacks Guide to HM with Henchies/Heroes thread he was getting amazing times without the need for any sort of tanking skills. Control isn't exactly easy either, for the most part, it involves staying alive long enough for the players to ball and nuke. Most of the time, a single player cannot pull this off with their own set of 8 skills so other players are involved with nuking and keeping the player alive. When you use Control when your team is built around your build.

Q&A
Q. My team wants me to tank and it’s very good built team, would it be better for do what they say and tank?
A. It depends on the team. Are they set around tank-n-spank? If so then yes. If no, if they aren’t prepared for you to ball or call nuke then look for another team.

Q. My monks suck, should I tank in this HM mission? I will/might die a lot.
A. First off, don’t tank unless it is tank-n-spank. Secondly, tanking decreases your chances of success because your bad monk will be spamming skills longer in battle. Just because your monk will heal badly, doesn't mean you should tank.

Q. DPS melee are better with ER infuse ele’s.
A. No, in fact, far from it. Monks can heal, they can protect and they can res. If you want extra damage ask a person to bring Great Dwarf Weapon like a SoS ritualist. If you have Asuran Scan, an increase attack speed skill or Strength and/or Honor your damage output should be fine enough as it is. The only difference is you can be playing dumber if playing with an ER infuse. Just because you can’t take more than 5% damage and have constant full healing spell being cast on you doesn’t mean you can aggro/attack everything. Regardless of any kind of healer! Play smart, stay in monks healing range and DON’T absorb damage like a tank (AKA randomly run out and fight a mob of Charr alone). In my opinion, ER infuse allow dumb players to play something that require smarter players, with less problems.

Q. I needed to tank X-Dungeon to beat it.
A. No you didn't. There is not a single part in Guild Wars that requires someone to absorb damage so that the team can beat it.

Q. Well, this speed clear is much faster because of tanking!
A. /facepalm, no way, it's like the team is built around you tanking.

Q. Your saying tanking is bad, yet a part of the game is better when players tank? Like speed clears, elite area's etc. are much faster when tanking, yet it sucks?
A. Yes it does suck, because speed clears and elite area's are just a small part of the game. Granted, doing speed clears and elite area's is a great way to get money but other than that. Missions, VQ, less popular dungeons and less popular elite area(s) are not so fortunate. In my opinion, make up 98% of the game. Which is basically 98% of the game that tanking sucks.
By all means, grab a tank for DeepSC, DoASC, UrgozSC, SoOSC, KathSC, FoWSC, UWSC. If the team is built for you to tank, then tank.
But tanking *insert all of the games story missions, VQ areas, less popular dungeons* isn't ideal.

**Marty Silverblade** · Nov 01, 2010, 01:36 AM // 01:36

I think you're still not making a clear distinction between tanking and tanking techniques. Your statement 'Body blocking isn’t that useful' is false. It's massively useful. Possibly even one of the most important things a PvE player can employ. All you need to hold aggro is SoA and maybe ProtSpirit/Shelter; from there you can pull foes around a corner (you don't need to waste skill slots on survival for this) and allow the rest of the team to nuke (or whatever else they're supposed to do). I think what you should be addressing is not whether balling the foes, at least to some degree, is useful (if you disagree you're doing it wrong) but whether/under what circumstances is it worthwhile putting all your eggs in one basket and going for a tank setup. For example, having 7 random builds and the Warrior being a tank is a waste because the survival skills + attributes on the Warrior are unnecessary (damage could have been there) and the team does not have the appropriate skills to make the best use of the balled foes. In speed clear situations or builds like those in the thread by EFGJack balling is useful because the whole team is behind the tank and spank concept. I might be wrong about this, but SC teams tend to use SF Sins to tank rather than Warriors (I believe Warriors are used for 100B), so I would advise people that purposely building a Warrior to be a pure tank is almost definitely a waste of potential.

PS: If you want to go on about how awesome AScan is, you might want to mention it multiplies damage last. i.e, it's +75% of your total damage. Not 75% of your raw weapon damage. Thus AScan nearly doubles your total damage output. Including Order of Pain, including +damage from attack skills, etc.

Life Bringing · Nov 01, 2010, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Tank-n-spank, nuker style......This tactic is very slow and overall isn’t safe.

No. Tank and spank is the same regardless of how you go about doing it(within reason). Any type of spike team will work perfectly well in the deep, SS just happens to be the most efficient. I believe before the RoJ nerf the record was 12 using RoJ.

Quote:

While you’re holding a few Destroyer attention, it’s a bad idea to run to your monk to body block that one Destroyer

What? This line doesnt make any sense. Not to mention that bodyblocking is one of the best things you can do in pve, especially from a h/h perspective.

Quote:

For those that are wondering, hexing is the best way to deal damage from a caster in PvE because of hexes limitless damage triggers and hardly any hex denial.

Definitely untrue. Not even close really. The Deep is a very specialized area involving shittons of melee that attack multiple times a second. This isnt true of all areas in guildwars.

Quote:

Most areas, missions and even elite areas can be done with melee without tanking.

Most areas can be done with half a party, that doesnt mean its a good idea. It also doesnt mean that its going to be the most efficient option. While full on tanking may not be a good idea, a melee toon with PS+SoA taking initial agro(tanking) is always the proper thing to do.[/QUOTE]

Quote:

Simple as that, tanking 3 Titans is meaningless when you can just as easily kill them.

OR! You can have your melee take agro of them, drag them to a wall, and you can proceed to make them explode faster due to the fact that you're hitting multiple targets.[/QUOTE]

Quote:

Q. Well, this speed clear is much faster because of tanking!
A. /facepalm, no way, it's like the team is built around you tanking.

I'm unsure of the point you're trying to make here because your statement doesnt make any sense, but teams with tanks hold the speedclear records for a reason.

Quote:

Yes it does suck, because speed clears and elite area's are just a small part of the game

That depends on how you look at things. Considering that the majority of the pve crowd atm almost exclusively sc, you could argue that speedclears and elite areas are the game atm. The other areas are less popular for a reason, and even while h/hing implementing tanking techniques is an important way to decrease the time spent moving through those less popular and easier areas.

Nice second try, but you made the same mistakes as in the first one

maxxfury · Nov 01, 2010, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Surely this should be:

"when it is appropriate/more efficient to tank'n'spank?"
not "tanking sucks" as the content pretty much contridicts that title..

You really need to clarify the the difference between general agro management and dedicated tanking..two completely different animals..*edit:Marty already pointed this part out*

Does dedicated tanking and spanking work? yup sometimes its plain faster depending on area/mob composition and numbers, but its most definitely not always the quickest, most efficient or most universal tactic for every area.

Is it always most efficient? nope, most areas arent populated with enough enemies or with enemies to make these extreme techniques more efficient, often its much quicker to just employ general agro control, pulling, positioning and sometimes some body blocking at a corner or wall in a "balanced" team (see:not a dedicated tank'n'spank setup)

But isnt it just good play to use general agro tactics anyway to collect enemies into one area to make killing quicker and more efficient even in a balanced team without a dedicated tank!?....Almost always! killing off stragglers with single tatget damage is less efficient, and proper agro managment with any class is only a matter of a few seconds and been a few steps in front of your team to draw initial agro in general with correct positioning.

When should i run a dedicated tank?...when the team is setup for it and enemies in the area are sufficiently numerous to more efficiently ball and nuke them all at once, and/or when said enemies hit hard enough to make it easier on the whole team to have one person sufficiently buffed to absorb the damage and be the focal point of agro.

SmokingHotImolation · Nov 01, 2010, 02:24 AM // 02:24

wow.. still? really?

Are you going to ignore all the screenshots that people posted with times many times faster than yours, or just debate that it is speedclears and they skip everything (even though they clearly dont). I especially liked the part in the old thread where you debated deep tactics with the creators of said deep tactics - i can't believe you are not convinced yet. I would post some screenshots aswell - i got a 30 min urgoz HM and a 1h15 minute DoA HM fullrun (without shadow form or spell protection), but youre probably gonna argue that it was speedclears and that we skipped everything.

You also use the same old invalid argument as in the old thread "dps is better than tanking", when those two things arent mutually exclusive. You keep mentioning Ascan, SoH and GDW saying how awesome they are, which is true! But taking those skills does not mean i can't tank, as in running ahead of the group and getting the mops balled up/blocked so they can explode fast. This is by no means unsafe or slow.

I also like how you say tanking techniques isn't tanking but just mob control which is good, yet you state that bodyblocking fails? You contradict yourself so much it's painful. seriously.
The fact that not a single person agreed with you in the old thread should ring a bell for you, but it seems as if you just think that we are all oblivious as to how this game is played optimally.

Reverend Dr · Nov 01, 2010, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Tanking sucks because if your monks aren't shit, then they brought prot spells and anyone on your team can "tank"

FoxBat · Nov 01, 2010, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Just make a thread "why defy pain/self heal sucks", I think that's the point you really want to get across. Arguing over whether Shadow Form makes efficient speedclears (or making a huge list of exceptions for why it does) is not going to enlighten those pugs any.

And let's stop trying to mimic Ensign's article. He's acknowledged much of what he wrote does not apply anymore. Fire eles are viable pvp templates, that's how much the game has changed.

Calista Blackblood · Nov 01, 2010, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Just to note,this thread will not be turning into another 4 page slagfest like the last one.

I will be watching this thread..

P_A_A · Nov 01, 2010, 10:29 AM // 10:29

I still don't get the difference between tanking and tanking techniques for you. Please explain.

Raxxman · Nov 01, 2010, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Tanking involves taking skills to dramatically improve your survivability, by blocking skills, armour buffs etc.

Tanking techniques involves managing AI agro (ie balling), preventing enemies from hitting your backline (ie linebacking, bodyblocking) which don't always involve skills from the skill bar.

JONO51 · Nov 01, 2010, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Not this again. Seriously. These are the same points written in a slightly different way and have already been proven wrong yet again. Yes, you can cspace pve, big deal so can everyone else, but tanking and blowing stuff up with splinter weapon, mop etc is faster. This has been proven multiple times so please stop trying.

And bodyblocking doesn't suck, thats just plain misinformation.

paranon · Nov 01, 2010, 06:36 PM // 18:36

First, i would like to congratulate you on a perfectly reasoned and presented argument. Then, i would like to pick it to shreds.

Never in this post do you really explain why tanking sucks. You say that tanking sucks when the team isn't a nuking team (obv), and you say that tanking is good when you have a hex team or a dedicated spike team, so the argument should be more like "why tanking sucks when your team isn't set up to deal AoE damage", which i would agree with.

There are only 2 ways of doing the deep, there is tank and spank, whatever spike team you use, and there is cspace, whether you use physicals, spirit spammers, barrage rangers, w/e. Tanking and spanking is always faster if you know what you are doing, even with "slow" spikes like SF (See me), cspace is generally a bit more relaxed and more open to different proffessions, i accept that.

Also, your version of physway isn't the "accepted" balanced way of completing areas, i don't know if you have heard of [ToA], but they don't speedclears either, but unlike you they still get things done in a reasonable amount of time. (FoW, DoA) using tanking tactics.

-While you’re holding a few Destroyer attention, it’s a bad idea to run to your monk to body block that one Destroyer
ahh, i was wondering why my team kept dying when i did that.. this is pretty much stating the obvious, but if you are blocking a few destroyers, then that is a few destroyers that aren't killing your monks, which is a good thing, no?

Don’t bring Great Dwarf Weapon if your team has no physicals and don’t tank unless your team is prepared to nuke.
This is pretty much all your post boils down to tbh, you aren't explaining why tanking sucks, you are explaining that it sucks if your party isn't synergised for it, which is pretty much right, ignoring how useful tanking is for body blocking and mitigating damage (migrating is something that birds do.)

Also, evidence is really nice to back up your arguments.

Zodiac Meteor · Nov 01, 2010, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Life Bringing, SmokingHotImolation, JONO51, FoxBat paranon please re-read my post. All of the things you said were. Also check out When to tank and When not to tank, it seems those were just randomly skipped.

Lets get a couple things clear, body blocking doesn't suck it's just isn't that useful. Body blocking is a game mechanic. Would you rather Body Block that Destroyer with a Dervish or a Mesmer? Both can be done but one better than the other.

I'm going to highlight what seems to be 100% of what people missed.

Quote:

Q. Your saying tanking is bad, yet a part of the game is better when players tank? Like speed clears, elite area's etc. are much faster when tanking, yet it sucks?
A. Yes it does suck, because speed clears and elite area's are just a small part of the game. Granted, doing speed clears and elite area's is a great way to get money but other than that. Missions, VQ, less popular dungeons and less popular elite area(s) are not so fortunate. In my opinion, make up 98% of the game. Which is basically 98% of the game that tanking sucks.
By all means, grab a tank for DeepSC, DoASC, UrgozSC, SoOSC, KathSC, FoWSC, UWSC. If the team is built for you to tank, then tank.
But tanking *insert all of the games story missions, VQ areas, less popular dungeons* isn't ideal.

Ironically, that small 2% is the more popular part of the game because of $$$. If it wasn't for the rare materials, gemstones, rare weapon drops in those area's (or HoM grinding) these would be empty like the other parts of Guild Wars. No one bothers completing Slavers Exile when that Voltaic Spear can be farmed. Almost never you hear, "LFG Frostmaw HM" when there isn't a ZB?

Tanking works, but not as well 98% of the time.

paranon · Nov 01, 2010, 09:36 PM // 21:36

I think elite areas and dungeons make up slightly more than 2% of the game tbh, if you think different then evidence evidence evidence tbh. also, if a tank is good when the team is set up for it, then saying "tanking sucks" is incorrect.

P_A_A · Nov 01, 2010, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Even if your percentages are wrong, have a look at EFGJacks' post: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/p...t10434178.html

He tanks in most parts of the game. Nuff said.

Zodiac Meteor · Nov 01, 2010, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

He tanks in most parts of the game. Nuff said.

Quote:

Warrior Builds
(Scroll down for templates)
Sword: Flail, Body Blow, Whirlwind Attack, S&M Slash, “For Great Justice!”, Hundred Blades, “I Am The Strongest!”, Asuran Scan.
Attributes: 12+1+1 Swordmanship, 12+1 Strength. Sentinel Insignia.
Playing this setup should be obvious enough. Block monsters -> get MoP up on one of the targets -> HB & Whirlwind, etc.

Axe: Flail, Dismember, Penetrating Blow, Penetrating Chop, “You Move Like A Dwarf!”, Warriors Endurance, “I Am The Strongest!”, Asuran Scan.
Attributes: 12+1+1 Axe Mastery, 12+1 Strength. Sentinel Insignia & Stonefist Insignia.
This is a good alternative for zones with small groups of monsters.
I never play this setup without Judge’s Insight. Penetrating attacks reach funny crits with stacked AP considering their low cost. “YMLAD!” offers hidden DPS and utility because it denies spell-casting & movement for a period of time. Chasing melee monsters if one gets past you can be quite painful with Flail & Monster-IMS from HM without it.
I do not use Mark of Pain necro when I play Axe.

Hammer: Frenzy, Crude Swing, Earth Shaker, Whirlwind Attack, “To The Limit!”, “For Great Justice!”, “By Ural’s Hammer!” Asuran Scan.
Attributes: 12+1+1 Hammer Mastery, 10+1 Strength. 8 Tactics. Whatever Insignia & Stonefist.

Requires Prot Spirit. I play this setup in areas with lethal damage that you can not prevent by body-blocking.
Why Frenzy you ask? Because Hammer is squishy enough to warrant Protective Spirit as is.

*/sigh* Please read, what is tanking.
This is going to rage thread way faster than it should.
I'll be happy to get up fraps and VQ every area in the game using 2 Spirit Strength Rit dagger heroes and henchies would that be good evidence? (as much as I hate grinding, I need it for HoM)

Quote:

I think elite areas and dungeons make up slightly more than 2% of the game tbh.

Considering all the other factors, not really. It has the best places to get money, but DoA =/= 50+ VQ's and Missions. The only dungeons worth SCing are SoO, Kath and maybe Slaver. Compared to the other 13 less popular dungeons in Eye of the North (snowman and kilroy punchout are not really dungeons in my opinion) it's a smaller part.

Life Bringing · Nov 01, 2010, 10:19 PM // 22:19

You seem to have an extremely distorted view of what tanking is. Be more specific and your posts might actually make sense.

Elite area scs make up a fairly small portion of the game as a whole, but in terms of content that is actually played with the current playerbase, SCs are the game.

In response to your highlighting of frenzy, why not bring it when you have a maintained SoA and PS on you? Using frenzy doesnt take away from your ability to tank in this situation(and yes, he is tanking).

Zodiac Meteor · Nov 02, 2010, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

You seem to have an extremely distorted view of what tanking is. Be more specific and your posts might actually make sense.

Elite area scs make up a fairly small portion of the game as a whole, but in terms of content that is actually played with the current playerbase, SCs are the game.

In response to your highlighting of frenzy, why not bring it when you have a maintained SoA and PS on you? Using frenzy doesnt take away from your ability to tank in this situation(and yes, he is tanking).

I'm highlighting it to show that he isn't tanking but using tanking tactics just fine and doing good. P_A_A said my argument was meaningless yet it was only proving my point.

Secondly, SCs do not make a large part of the player base. If they did, I wouldn't be posting this. People think migrating damage rocks and If I wasn't running into pure damage migrating builds everywhere I wouldn't be posting this. If I wasn't seeing "GLF tank Frost Gate HM" asking them what kind of tank, they respond "one that can eat damage" I wouldn't be posting this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by From Original Post

What is Tanking?
Tanking has multiple roles but it’s most important one is migrating damage for the team. Migrating damage allows the team to stay well alive and allows the midline or backline to deal decent damage without being attacked and for the most part it works. This sounds ideal, sadly however, just because it works doesn’t mean it works well.

Is there something I'm missing here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by From Original Post

When to Tank:
Tanking is inferior to DPS, but there are times that it is better to tank. The best time to tank is when your team build is fit your tanking build. In other words, unless your balling up a huge group of enemies, pulling them in a ball to your team to nuke. That is when to tank.

When not to Tank:
When there is no tank-n-spanking. Simple as that, tanking 3 Titans is meaningless when you can just as easily kill them. Unless your team is built around you tanking, then tank. If not, then use your killing machine class to kill.

Q. Your saying tanking is bad, yet a part of the game is better when players tank? Like speed clears, elite area's etc. are much faster when tanking, yet it sucks?
A. Yes it does suck, because speed clears and elite area's are just a small part of the game. Granted, doing speed clears and elite area's is a great way to get money but other than that. Missions, VQ, less popular dungeons and less popular elite area(s) are not so fortunate. In my opinion, make up 98% of the game. Which is basically 98% of the game that tanking sucks.
By all means, grab a tank for DeepSC, DoASC, UrgozSC, SoOSC, KathSC, FoWSC, UWSC. If the team is built for you to tank, then tank.
But tanking *insert all of the games story missions, VQ areas, less popular dungeons* isn't ideal.

Edit: I'll put this as well. I really hope this doesn't get turned into a rage thread because leetist PvE players don't realize there is a game outside of The Underworld. A game where newbs (like my friend) completely miss out on information like this and hop into HM only to find getting their butts kicked left and right. Where Cynn is doing 40 damage with Meteor Shower, Mhenlo getting pummeled by Jotun and your running around with Defy Pain, whacking 10 damage at the Jotun that is completely ignoring you. This is why this is posted.

Life Bringing · Nov 02, 2010, 03:43 AM // 03:43

No, it's not trolling(ok, trolling this thread is fun as hell, but im being srs). You have a distorted/one-dimensional view of tanking. This is fact. Question for you. How do you employ tanking techniques, without someone tanking? It's not possible. Tanking is not purely for damage mitigation(see what i did thar?). It is an effective tool to amplify the entire party's damage by allowing them to hit multiple foes with their spells/attacks. This has been explained to you countless times and you have thus far refused to see reason. Its pvxdrama over your shitty physway bars all over again.

Zodiac Meteor · Nov 02, 2010, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

No, it's not trolling(ok, trolling this thread is fun as hell, but im being srs). You have a distorted/one-dimensional view of tanking. This is fact. Question for you. How do you employ tanking techniques, without someone tanking? It's not possible. Tanking is not purely for damage mitigation(see what i did thar?). It is an effective tool to amplify the entire party's damage by allowing them to hit multiple foes with their spells/attacks. This has been explained to you countless times and you have thus far refused to see reason. Its pvxdrama over your shitty physway bars all over again.

Please read my previous post. Ironically there is some evidence that I didn't need to prove.

Edit: If this is just lashing out at me, I'm going to request a ban. Please keep this to a logical level, read my posts and have good arguements. No evidence is needed, examples will do fine.